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So this is who they put those features in for

@Sir_Boops or, put another way, this is why we can't have nice things.

@clacke @Sir_Boops safe is worse. It allows individuals like these to continue their behavior.
You wouldn't trust them behind the wheel of a car. Would you trust them to do much else?

@clacke @Sir_Boops I trust programmers even less than the average driver

@anna @clacke @Sir_Boops Maybe, but the average driver's performance gets virtually no scrutiny, and you can't batch-improve the average performance of a large number of drivers with a code update.
I'm betting on slow-but-steady improvement, partly driven by air-traffic-style post-incident investigations. Also the greater consistency of the computers: they don't get drunk, tired or angry, and they don't have lapses of attention.

@eldergoth @anna @Sir_Boops Exactly. You don't *have* to trust a programmer of an autonomous routine as much as you have to trust a driver. A moment's lapse of attention from a driver can kill someone immediately, but a moment's lapse of attention from a programmer won't drastically affect code quality in a way that survives the chain of code review, unit testing, system testing, acceptance testing, certification ... by the time that routine reaches your car, it has already driven millions of miles of road in physical and virtual cars, with other code and humans watching over its shoulder on the way.

Now, whether you trust that system and that chain of checks, that's the real question. I have worked with people who work with these systems, and I do.

@clacke @eldergoth @Sir_Boops I'm not looking forward to the vehicular equivalent of "dark skinned people can't face-unlock our phones"

@anna @eldergoth @Sir_Boops The thing is, all it takes to avoid that is to get one dark-skinned person (in the specific example) on the team. Which of course just makes it all the more embarrassing that these problems exist. But once your autonomous soap-dispensers and phones and cars know that there are different skin colors, they won't be structurally racist in that particular aspect anymore.

Your human car drivers, it doesn't matter how diverse your car design team is, the human car drivers who want to open their beer bottle with the belt buckle while driving down the highway ... they still can't be fixed.

libranet.de/photos/clacke/imag…

@anna @clacke @Sir_Boops Whereas I'm looking forward to "sorry mate, I didn't see you" being a historical footnote.
Don't get me wrong; I don't mean to dismiss your concerns with "that won't happen.
I fully expect there will be problems, some of which will be fatal. But we already have way too many of those with human drivers, and humans can't be systematically improved.
I'm not betting on robot drivers as they are now, but as they can be.

@Sir_Boops im so glad that my car doesnt have any of these nannies, or whatever subaru calls onstar. but i have a theory that all these assists make people worse drivers

@makestuff Ye it's weird af going from a car with all the safety shit in it, then back to mine with...well this only safety feature in it is airbags XD

@Sir_Boops they gave me a forester as a temp and it had everything and it flipped the fuck out at the roads in pittsburgh. also the brake assist must assume that you have the reaction time of a baked granny. like just rolling is a legit way to slow down...

@makestuff @Sir_Boops it does make you a worse driver *for that car* if only because without ESC the car would try to flip itself over at the nearest chance.

@cant_into @Sir_Boops ok it has ESC but i turn it off in the snow because the last thing i want is for power to cut or random braking applying to a random wheel because the 1's and 0's came in wrong.

@Sir_Boops My dad always told me to drive slower in rain. We use metric here but looking at that conversion, slowing down is definitely needed! Then again, we also banned all use of cell phones without Bluetooth in cars in Canada, so unless it's the passenger using it, that would be illegal in 2 ways here, speed and texting.

@jlbee 70 mph is about 115 kph

Clearly you're in the commie part of Canada ;p

@Sir_Boops @jlbee Oh shit, I didn't even look close enough to realize that was mph. I thought 70 km/h was too fast to be taking pictures of your instrument panel in the rain.
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